Podcast Workflows - Tips for podcasters to grow their podcast without wasting time.

Hey everybody.

As I prepare for the next season of
podcast workflows, I wanted to give you

a little pre-seasoned bonus episode.

That is a coaching call I had with Amy.

Amy was struggling to
get good conversations.

From her guests.

She has a.

Uh, pretty technical podcast technical
in the professional sense, not in the.

Techie sense, like computer sense.

She interviews lawyers, attorneys,
and people in the legal space.

And so she has a hard time.

Writing those stories and what
prompted her to reach out to

me was she attended a webinar.

I hosted where I talked about seven
mistakes that podcasters make, and

one is not forming the narrative.

And so she hopped on a
coaching call with me.

And we talked about how to
leverage a pre-interview.

To elicit those good questions
and those good conversations.

And we talked about a storytelling
format where instead of her just doing

a straight conversation, she can.

Record, uh, the questions and
answers, grab the answers and

then write a story around it.

So I really enjoyed this call with Amy.

I think that.

She has the.

Uh, drive in the resources to be able to
do some of the things we talked about.

I'm really excited about.

Uh, where her show is
going to go from here.

So this is pretty much a straight call.

Uh, not too.

I edited some parts out
for clarity and I edited.

I added a little disclaimer, kind
of at one point where, um, we wanted

to protect the identity of some
people that we were talking about.

But other than that, it's a pretty
straightforward conversation.

I hope you enjoy it.

Uh, if you want to get all of the
show notes and learn more about what

Amy is doing, check for the link
in the description in your podcast

player, and you can join my mailing
list over@podcastworkflows.com.

Otherwise, here is my
conversation with Amy.

Joe: Okay, so your employer told
you you should start a podcast.

So tell me a little, the thing
that I like to well, I always like

to ask the first question, like,
what's your biggest struggle?

And then I'm like really
into process stuff.

So I'd love to know like, how you
produce your podcast, but it sounds

like the harder part for you is actually
getting like the good conversations.

That's the hard

Amie: part.

Okay.

Because everything's pretty high and dry.

Yeah.

It's, I mean, yeah, so when you
were talking about stories like that

totally rings a hundred percent to me.

A hundred percent.

Cuz I'm also a copywriter.

Okay.

Stories.

So I love stories.

Nice.

I'm all about it.

Yeah.

So it's like, man, I so wanna tell
stories, but I know like, cuz when you

talk about developers and how they, they
answer questions directly, it's like, oh.

Mm-hmm.

Come on, let's add some fluff.

Let's add some fluff.

Joe: Yeah.

So there's a couple of
things that you could do.

I shared I do these like deep dives
on podcast workflows, and I just

did one on one of my favorite shows
History Daily about how, and I think

I mentioned this during the, the live
stream, but like, yeah, he'll take

a seemingly dry topic and turn it
into this really interesting story.

So this creates more work in
the edit, but something that

you could do is get the answers.

From the, from your guest, and then you
could weave stories around the answers.

So at this point, I ask Amy.

To tell me a little bit about a horror
story or a bad guest that she had.

And she gets pretty specific.

She doesn't name names, but I think that.

Anybody familiar with her show and
certainly the people who are on that show.

Would know who she's talking about here.

So to protect Amy and protect her, I'm
going to recount this a little bit.

And, and have some of her commentary.

That's heavily edited, but
basically she had a guest.

Where she had multiple folks,
including at least one attorney.

And she really wants to talk
about one aspect of like a

common aspect of these people.

So you know, if it's in
attorney, client thing,

Maybe she has the attorney and the client
who's willing to talk about their case.

But in this case,

The person that she wanted
to talk to the most.

Didn't say much.

And the other person basically
just spent the whole time.

Pitching their services.

So she didn't really get a good recording.

That she could use.

Out of this and, and that's, I
wanted to provide a little bit

of context there so that I didn't
have to recount her whole story.

And possibly give away to people in
the know who she's talking about.

Amie: I learned my lesson with this one.

So what this podcast episode
was, was an attorney.

This guy and they were both talking
about how it helps bring in clients.

So I was hoping to get more of
the attorney on the podcast.

But it was just one giant pitch.

Yeah.

And I did not see that one coming.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Is what ended up happening
was, thankfully these aren't

recorded, li I just record 'em.

Yeah.

And then I go back and I add my own stuff.

Kind of like what you were saying.

Joe: Yeah.

So this is like, yeah.

This is where a pre-interview will save
me too, because like I've gotten pitches.

I got somebody who was like, I'd
love to come on your podcast also.

This episode needs to be out by this date.

And I'm like, oh, no, you, what
you're talking about is sponsorship.

Like that's this.

If you want, if you want a specific
date and wanna talk about specific

things, that is something you pay for.

But he was talking about
like time management, which.

Really good for both
developers and creators.

Right.

Unlike basically anybody almost.

So I kind of read him the riot act
before he recorded and I was like, if

there's like a whiff of pitching your
thing in this episode, it will not air.

Oh man.

Amie: That's great.

I need to be bold like

Joe: you.

Yeah, I mean like that's, you
know, I mean, I'm from New

York, so like we're just very.

Candid and direct.

Amie: It sounds like I need to Okay.

Be more of a New Yorker and be more
bold because we email back and forth.

What I ran into is that I would
pre-interview these people.

Yeah.

And the.

I don't know if this is what it's like
for you, but it's always the same thing.

Like it'd be like, I'd be like, all right,
it's like gonna be a 10 minute phone call.

Me and you.

We've never spoken before or like
Yeah, even before the podcast.

Yeah, like the day of and
before I'm able to hit record.

They give me all the juicy stuff.

Like right off the bat,
like all the good stuff.

Yeah, that's, and then I'm like, why

Joe: aren't you, this

Amie: isn't a podcast yet.

Joe: Don't tell me this now.

Yeah.

So that, that happens to me all the time.

But that's good, right?

Because I write it down and then
I say, okay, save that energy.

Keep it.

I'm gonna ask you the same
thing during the recording.

Okay.

And most, I mean, at least most people in
my space understand, like, I'm gonna ask

them as if I've never heard it before.

Right, right.

So it's like, so, you know, oh, you
were telling us about, you know, some

interesting, I don't know, I dunno
if you interviewed trial lawyers

or not, but like an interesting
court case or whatever, right?

Or like estate planning, you know, like
how do we make that interesting, right?

Like right, so you were telling me this
thing can you give us the details of that?

Right?

Like, something like that, right?

Like tee it up so that they can, they
can tell that story again because like,

most lawyers have good stories, right?

So, Or should,

Amie: but, but they're like, that's
confidential information, like Right.

Joe: Yeah.

Just don't use names right with me here.

So, so what I'll do, so if they, so
if they do that, what I would do is

I will create a fabricated scenario
that is very similar to the one

where they can't give the details.

Let's say I didn't have a
contract in place with a client.

They prepaid me for work and
then disappeared for four years.

Now they're asking for the money back.

Do I have to give them that money?

so like usually I would paint
that picture, like paint a

picture like that, right?

Where they don't have to, they could give
their non-binding advice as a profession.

Because this is the other thing,
like every lawyer I've had on, on my

show every, like, it's all the time.

I've had a couple and I'm like,
you wanna throw a disclaimer at the

beginning that anything they hear
on this show is not legal advice.

And that they should consult a real
lawyer in their field or whatever.

They're like, yeah, that's a good idea.

And I'm like, yeah, I
know it's a good idea.

Amie: So, all right, so adding that

Joe: disclaimer would really help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because cuz then like, cuz you know,
there are people who'd be like,

well I heard this on a podcast.

And I'm like, all right, well that's
like not advice for you, right?

Mm-hmm.

I always, if I talk about like copyright
or something, I might always, like,

I'm not a lawyer, let's be clear.

This is how I understand
it, but I'm not, don't.

Don't think I'm right.

So yeah, like having that disclaimer
might, you know, you could always say

like, oh yeah, we have a, whenever
we have a lawyer on the show, we

have a prerecorded disclaimer at the
beginning that says, you know, the

things that you hear on this show
should not be considered legal advice.

And you should you know, consult a
lawyer in your state or your country,

or whatever, you know, however, You
can wordsmith that part, I think.

Right?

And that might, that might
help open them up a little bit.

And then like bud creating these
hypothetical situations instead of asking

them like direct, direct details about a
case could also open them up a little bit.

Yeah.

So those are the things that
I would generally recommend.

Like, and again, like the pre-interview,
don't, like, don't worry about

guests repeating things in the
pre-show and the main show because

You know, this is, this is for you.

You're eliciting information that you
want to be stated on the main show, right?

So even if you repeat like everything
you talk about on the pre-show for your

audience, like that's fine because now you
can also think of good follow-up questions

or thing like context to add as well.

That's true.

Yeah.

And then, Again, the other thing
I do like, depending on how much

editing, and I know it's almost
lunchtime and I don't want to keep you.

But again, I'd like to learn a little
bit about your process because based

on how you do post-production, you
could like basically a, like ask que,

like just ask questions, record the
whole interview, and then record your,

they're called interstitials, right?

The things that you put in
between their answers later.

And kind of sew it all together so that
it's you telling the story and then

you're using their answers to supplement.

Right.

So you know, Joe Casabona had been
a web developer for 20 years and

he was working with a client on
and off for a good portion of that,

then the relationship went sour.

Here's how.

Then you might wanna have a, a clip
of a lawyer you're talking to, going

like, it doesn't matter if you're
friends with the person, you always

need to have a contract in place.

Joe didn't have a contract in place.

Right?

Like, that's like that sort of stuff
where it's, it's almost like your

podcast and you are using their answers
to support what you're talking about.

Is that successful?

Hugely, like Serial does that, right?

Like Serial and Suspect like
the true crime shows, right?

Where they're weaving the story and
then they're getting like clips from

the people involved, the, the guy in
jail, the, the public defendant who's

trying to get them outta jail, whatever.

Cuz then like, cuz then you
can control it a lot more.

So.

And I generally don't recommend this to
people unless they have like the time

and the ability or the, the time and
the budget to do that kind of editing.

Amie: I do all the editing,
so I, I mean, I use Camtasia.

It's nice.

Yeah.

So it's like, it's not a big deal.

I just don't know how to
properly do the podcast.

I figured like the conversational
style would've been the way to go.

But how you're saying like, I could,
let me make sure I understand you right.

So I'm recording in
conversation with a lawyer.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm asking them the questions
and we're having a conversation and

then I go into editing and I only
grab like the really good answers

and then I go back and I fill myself.

Cuz it's also video too.

Yeah.

So I feel myself weaving
the stories in between.

Their answers.

Joe: Yeah, that's, and like, I mean,
maybe if it's a good conversation, right?

You, you keep it conversational, but like,
if you're getting like short answers or

boring answers right then and the way
to do it, and this is something you'd

have to keep, like I would probably,
if I was doing it this way, I would

keep a post-it note like right here
to be like, pause after their answer.

Okay.

And pause and because
you wanna make sure that.

You're leaving and I mean, I
guess if you're just getting

their track, it doesn't matter.

But you want a little bit of a gap
to make it a little easier to edit.

Yeah.

But yeah, cuz then, then you're
essentially, and I'm like

jumping all over the place.

But then you're essentially
getting like B-roll, right?

For the actual, like, this is like
the, oh, ever watch the Daily Show?

Okay, so on the Daily Show
or, or Colbert, right?

They would have these ridiculous
interviews with real people, but they

weren't being serious journalists.

Like there's no way that they
just re like, released that

interview unedited, right?

Because they're, they're editing
for comedic impact, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it's like how Jay Leno's, like
man on the street interviews, they

only picked the dumbest people, right?

Most people probably know.

Who the first president was, but like
the five people who were stupid enough

to be like King George or whatever, like
those are the people that they really

like milked the, the footage out of.

Right.

So yeah, so you could
definitely do it that way.

And it's a, it's really interesting.

Founders will do this too, right?

Where they hire a podcast production
company and the host that they hire,

Is basically just there to, to elicit
good answers from the founder so that

the founder has a podcast because
they can't just talk on their own.

Right?

Like, right.

Some people have a hard time talking
for, oh, 20 minutes a half hour straight.

I obviously don't have that problem
cuz I'm really, I talk a lot.

But like, you know, some people
like, what would I even talk about?

Right?

So like, the job of the interviewer,
here's what you can talk about.

So I know I gave you a lot of stuff there.

Hope, hopefully it was there
were at least a couple.

I, i a couple things that
you can maybe start trying.

Well now I

Amie: thank you so much by the way
and I'm really glad you recorded this.

Yeah.

So what were your examples of the
ones where they only use the main

Joe: clips?

Mm, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So a lot from Wondery
is the podcast network.

So like Wondery Wondery a Wonder
with a why at the end of it.

Suspect is one.

So that's a True Crime podcast where
basically the journalist is telling

a story and then they're using.

You know, not footage, but audio
that they got from the people

they interviewed to supplement and
support what they're talking about.

So it'll be like you
know, Leon was just a kid.

He didn't even know what was
going on when he was arrested.

And then like, they'll cut to
Leon talking about how like, I

had no idea what I was doing, man.

And then now that I'm in my
forties, I know better or whatever.

Like, so like, it's
like sort of like that.

Something closer to what you might do.

My friend Yang Sue Chung, has a
podcast called First Class Founders.

And so he will interview a founder
and, and he'll grab the story and

he'll basically do the same thing.

So he'll be like you know, KeHE used to
be a, a a Wall Street or an investor.

BlackRock.

And he was well on his way to making a
million dollar salary and then he quit

and then it'll cut to KeHE talking about
how like they always say the best time

to quit is after next year's bonus.

And I was in that cycle.

And then one year I just
decided it's time to go.

Right.

So like that's the sort of thing that
I think could work really well for you.

So And it does take a little
pre like pre-thought, right?

If you're gonna have like an estate
planning lawyer or whatever, right?

You're gonna wanna know the hook, right?

Like before, and then kind of ask
those questions to elicit answers.

You might be like worst case scenario,
what happens if you know, both

parents die in a car accident and
they leave a kid behind or whatever.

Right.

Ask them that question and then you
don't necessarily have to lead in

with that, but you could say like,
how important is estate planning?

Well, I asked Johnny Lawyer over here.

I'm so good at coming up with names.

I asked Johnny Lawyer, what could
happen to kids in the event of an

untimely death of both parents?

And then you have that answer, and
then you can be like, you know,

as a mother of two kids, myself,
That really hit home for me.

Amie: Oh man, you're
giving me so many ideas.

Okay.

Does it, does it have to be
structurally the same though?

Like like with each podcast
episode, like is it okay if

like one is like conversational
style, me and the other person?

Cuz it's a really good conversation.

Joe: This is a great time
to experiment, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, maybe, maybe one
format works, right?

Like, like, look at your best
performing episode so far.

See how that's done?

Switch up the format a little bit and
then kind of see how that does over time.

And again, like if you have like a
couple of good interviews, right?

Like just release them
as you normally would.

But then like when you get a
bad one, you'd be like, all

right, I'm gonna try this.

This perfect thing.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Amie: Thank you so much.

Yeah, no problem.

I thought all, all of 'em

Joe: had to be the same.

No, I like, I am bullish on mixing it up

so for like the first 150 episodes of my
podcast, I asked the same five questions.

Oh, see, that's, yeah.

That's me.

Yeah.

And like it was okay for the
first hundred or so episodes.

But then I started to notice
my downloads going down, right?

Because like more people were podcasting.

And it just didn't, it didn't become
very interesting after a while.

And so then I mixed it up.

So now I have the interviews I
still do, and they're not, they're

not never the same five questions.

They're very guest specific.

I have solo episodes where it's
like me talking for 20 minutes on

a topic and every Friday I have
a, a five to 10 minute episode.

About a specific tool that
I've been trying and enjoying.

That is so cool.

Amie: Yeah.

I gotta get, I gotta get on your
podcast and start listening.

Yeah.

That's cool.

So you mix it up and you're
able to see what works

Joe: best.

Yeah.

What does well, right.

What doesn't do well what guests
resonated more stuff like that.

Right.

And, and.

As you experiment more, you kind
of see, oh, like this really

the only problem is right.

It's like if you do this one and it
takes you like forever and it like

kills it, now you're like, oh man.

Now I'm on the hook for like 10
hours of work for every episode.

Right,

Amie: right.

Yeah.

So, so do you do the video
too, or is it just audio?

Joe: I just do audio right now.

I release the audio only on
YouTube and for my solo show

I keep the camera rolling.

Oh, okay.

And so I'll use that to like
release clips and stuff, so, yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't do the, the video
editing side of things.

Just cuz like, I think you know,
again, I've been podcasting for like

over 10 years and so like, oh wow.

Yeah.

I had no idea.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I've been doing it for a while.

Dang.

So I've made like every mistake.

I feel so much better now.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like I, my first show was like legit, just
like me and three friends, like talking

about something we knew nothing about.

I was like, we should, A podcast is
just like a barroom conversation.

Like, do you know how
terrible that podcast is?

It's terrible.

Amie: Well, it's kind of like
Seinfeld a show about nothing.

Joe: Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Except like there were good
writers on Seinfeld, right.

And like, it was just like, oh, so
like, what's this Bitcoin thing?

Like, oh, I don't know.

I think it's like digital money.

Like that was like an actual episode.

We did an episode on Bitcoin and
none of us researched Bitcoin.

Like, we just started
talking about it on Skype.

Oh, you're just B fing.

At this point, we had to end
the conversation because Amy's

kids were getting hungry.

Uh, Amy was a few hours
behind me, timezone wise.

And so my kids had already
eaten, but hers had not.

So, um, we, this was a really
good place to stop it though.

I think because we covered
a lot of ground, right.

I told her a little bit about
my experience, making all of

the mistakes, how she can.

Mix up her format and test a little bit.

And one of the things, the
important things I think here was.

Her allowing her guests
to add a disclaimer.

Right?

This was something like I said, that
I've done with some of my lawyer, guests

and other professional guests, because.

People hear professional
talking and they're going to

think that's legal advice.

Right?

And so this makes in my experience,
especially attorneys hesitant.

To say things definitively.

So adding that disclaimer, having
that pre-interview will definitely

open the guests up a little bit more.

If you like this and you want
your own coaching call, you

can head over to podcast.

liftoff.com.

Slash coaching.

There are a few options there.

And, uh, be sure to be on the lookout for.

More episodes of this
show coming out very soon.

Thanks so much for listening.

And I can't wait to see what you make.