Podcast Workflows - Tips for podcasters to grow their podcast without wasting time.

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Hey, everybody. We've got another coaching call for you today, but it's a little bit different than the normal coaching calls that I've done on this show before because Trudie Avery, the guest today is shutting down her podcast.

So, instead of a coaching call on what you can do to improve your podcast, we're doing a little bit of a postmortem. And Trudie's biggest problem as you'll come to find out Is actually positioning. She is a branding expert. She goes by the Logo Lady, but her show was about starting a brand new business. And so what we discuss in this episode is passion projects versus projects that have a measurable ROI for your business, what she could have done differently and what maybe she'll do in the future.

If you like episodes like this, these coaching calls, let me know. You can go to [profitablepodcaster.fm/feedback]. There's a link in the show notes. And if you wanna be the subject of one of these coaching calls, you can go to the same place and let me know. I try to do one per month. They are on a first come, first serve basis. And, I will help you solve your biggest podcasting problem in about 20 minutes. But without further ado, let's get to the intro and then the interview.

Having a profitable podcast is like having any other profitable business. You need to make money. Sure. But you also need to grow. You need to spend your time wisely, and you need predictability. A couple of sponsors won't make you a profitable podcaster, but having systems to stay consistent, create steady growth, and generate predictable income will. That's what you'll get with this show.

Hi. I'm your host, Joe Casabona. And my podcasts have been profitable from Day 1. I'll share everything I know with you here on the Profitable Podcaster.

Joe Casabona: All right. I am here with Trudie Avery. Trudie, thanks for being on the show. I appreciate you coming.

Trudie Avery: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for asking.

Joe Casabona: Now you, as we record this, you released an episode of your podcast basically announcing that you will no longer be doing it, but it's called Why My Podcast Failed. So, I just wanna start off by saying, I think that you did a great job kind of breaking down what worked and what didn't work for you kind of these podcast lessons. But, I do want to dig into some of that today.

And so, first of all, your podcast was called the Brand New Business Podcast. So it's still gonna be up for a little bit, I assume, right? It's not, or are you like taking it down immediately?

Trudie Avery: I can leave it. See what happens. If anybody glean anything from it, it'd be great.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. That's great. And full disclosure, I was on the podcast. I enjoyed our interview but, I think I was…I might have been a little late sharing it because I was in Disney World of the week it came out. But, that's one of…I mean that's one of the things that you mentioned. But,, let's start off this call by…I'll ask you what you felt your biggest struggle or your biggest problem with the podcast?

Trudie Avery: Yeah. I mean, and that is a multifaceted answer really, but mm-hmm. I think my greatest learning is I decided from the first instance, I'm gonna do a podcast because I'm really passionate about something. And the thing for me was my clients really, my design clients, they're new businesses that they come into business and they're really passionate about what they do. And sometimes they have these amazing back stories, and amazing experiences, and pretty much all of them have got a tale to tell. And I thought, there's people who come along and say to me, “Oh, I wish I could start a business.” And for me, I was like, “Well, you can.” But everybody puts blocks in the way. I can't because of the mortgage. I can't because of the kids. I can't because of, I'm too highly paid already. I dunno what I do, you know, listen. And I thought I can help these people, and I really wanted to help. And I thought, and it does link back to me as a branding expert.

It was slightly tenuous, but you know it. This is who I am. This is what I do. But in the end, I think it was a case of, it wasn't a strong enough link to me as a branding expert. It didn't make people listen to the podcast and go, “I really wanted to work with her. She needs to do my branding.”

So, in terms of lead generation, which is a big part of why I wanted to do it as well, it just didn't happen. Didn't happen. So, you know, I was doing this almost altruistic thing, which was lovely and I really enjoyed doing it. And I loved the learning curve and everything was great. But I'm just one person in my business. And to spend 10 hours a month editing for podcasts, I just… Yeah. I can't. I can't sustain that. Really.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's tough, right? Because if you're not getting your return on your investment and you charge, you know, even a hundred dollars an hour, then, you know, that's a thousand bucks a month that you're spending in your own time to edit a podcast. And if it's like a…if it's something you're really passionate about and you're willing to spend like $12,000 a year on it, on top of the actual costs, then fine. But I think a lot of people, right, especially listeners of this show, The Profitable Podcaster, a way they want to have a show that makes the money. And so I think you're…to use the British term, I think bang on. Right. I think I'm using that right by saying, it wasn't a strong enough link to your own brand and your own expertise. Right?

Trudie Avery: Yes.

Joe Casabona: And this is something a lot of… I think a lot of people who start a podcast as a passion project. This is a…this is something a lot of…a problem a lot of people have, right? And so like, “Oh, I'm really into Lego, so I'm gonna start a show about Lego” or “I'm really into Disney, so I'm gonna start a show about Disney.” But, that's fine if it's your hobby. But if you want this to be a vehicle for your business and you wanted to generate leads, then it should be linked to you and your expertise.

So, I think if we take the same concept, I think what you probably could have done was highlight more of your client stories, right? Cuz you said like your clients have a lot of great stories about how they started the business. “Hi!” Really, like, make it part I would say like make it part of what you offer your clients say like not only am I going to do the branding for you, but we're also gonna record a podcast interview after the branding is done about what I did and how I did it. And you'll tell your story and how I integrated that story, right? That like really helps tell the story of that like really helps tell the story for your client and also helps the people that you want to help, right?

I couldn't start a business for whatever, right? Like I know specifically when I was on your show, you asked me and I told the story about how…like I started a business with a three month old at home. Like I left my full-time job. My wife was still on maternity leave. And so like I decided, all right. Well, I'm gonna obliterate all of our income and bet on this business. And like it worked out. You know, so far so good. We have got three kids now, and I'm still self-employed. But I think that, that might have been a really good angle.

Trudie Avery: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Or conversely, right. Start the mini-podcast where you give people branding tips. And I think, you know, I think that there's a lot of people doing that. You'd have to find your own spin on it. But this all comes back to the mission statement, right? And I know you've seen this content of mine. But for those who haven't, right? Your mission statement basically forces you to answer three questions: Who am I doing this for? What problem am I solving? and how am I solving that problem?

And so, it's my podcast helps blank solve blank by blank. My podcast helps audience solve problem by goal of the podcast. And that really helps you align it with your business and then helps you determine, “Oh, is this gonna help me generate leads, right?”

And again. I'll say I have the same problem with How I Built It, right? My biggest show is me interviewing other developers, or it was developers. Now it's creators. It doesn't do a whole lot for me to establish my authority and I'm changing that.

But that's part of the reason I started this show is so that I can establish my authority. Authority in the podcast space. So, I think you were really on the right track. And I think like with a couple of tweaks to the content and the mission and the goal, right? You could, you know, it could have been…it possibly could have been worthwhile. I won't say it definitely would've been. I think there's a lot of alignment there. And depending on if your clients like didn't want their story told or whatever. I think that…

Trudie Avery: It's getting people to listen to it. So, why would people be interested in listening to my clients?

One bit of feedback that I had, which I thought was really useful from the one my podcasts failed episode was that this guy who is a client of mine, he said, you know, I really enjoyed your episodes. I then listened to them because I love you. But he said, I had no clue who these people were. You know, they were nobody to me. So from the GetGo, I'm not interested in them particularly. And I thought, “Oh. That's interesting.”

Joe Casabona: Yeah. You know, that's really interesting cuz I will…I'll generally tell people the kind of flip side of that, which is like a famous guest doesn't mean more downloads. Like one of my worst performing episodes was Peter Hollands. He's a…If you don't know who he is, he's a big YouTuber. He does Acapella stuff. He's extremely talented.

Trudie Avery: Oh yeah. He's, he was great.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. But no one listened to that episode because they didn't find it relatable. They weren't doing YouTube stuff. It was also at the time, right. I was still focused on developers.

Trudie Avery: Sorry.

Joe Casabona: That's exactly right. And so the thing that when you're trying to figure out how to get people to listen, it's very much, you gotta look, you gotta think about it as like, what's in it for me? What's in it for them? And so if you're talking, again, if you're trying to align this with your brand and your services and how you can help them, I think telling the client stories could be that, right? Where it's like, “Hey, you know, basically your thesis statement is everybody is bad at doing their own branding.” right? Which I think is probably not a far-fetched statement.

I've rebranded this podcast like three times. My first online course website was called WP in One Month, and it like wasn't just WordPress and it wasn't just four week courses. So like, there was no good reason for that name. I just bought the domain and used it.

And so if that's your thesis statement, right, every… you are bad at doing your own branding. “This podcast will help you be better at doing your own branding. Here's how…” and then you could talk about, “Hey, Joe came in and Joe is historically bad at naming things”. And so the first thing we did was sit down and look at his ideal client and figure out what words resonated with them, what, however you named stuff, what words resonated with them. And then we came up with a brand name that told people immediately how Joe could help them. And then people are like, “Oh, yeah. Research and brand names, but like, I'm still in my own head. Maybe I'll reach out to Trudie. Right? And so part of it is like, “Oh, I'm also bad at naming things. I'm going to use this.” right?

And so if you make it much less focused on what the guest did and who the guest is, and more focused on this guest's story, helps you figure out your own problem. I think that will get more people to listen. That would get more people to listen.

Trudie Avery: Yeah. I mean, what I tried to do every week was to have a reason. To break down a reason why people don't go into business for themselves. As you said, yours was very much based on the fact that you had a three month old baby. You were the sole earner in your household, and yet it didn't stop you.

So, for me, that was breaking down people's reasoning to say, “I can't go to business for myself because I have a family to feed.” So I did try to focus on like, on those things every week. So, you know, how long does it take to decide to go into business was another one, or how do you even decide what business to start was another one. So I did kind of theme it every week. Yeah. It just wasn't…

Joe Casabona: Yeah.

Trudie Avery: I dunno. Strong enough.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. And I mean, I think that's good if your main offering was helping people start businesses, right?

Trudie Avery: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: I think like your show would be the perfect format for like a business launch coach or whatever.

Trudie Avery: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Because then like you tack on your own stuff at the end or at the beginning, right? Like, “Oh, I talked to Joe. And this is what he was nervous about.” If you are nervous about this, this is what I would tell you. Right?

Whereas like the branding stuff, again, that falls much more in line. And again, like I make this everybody, people who start podcasts, people who start a lot of things make this mistake constantly, right? They have a passion. They want an outlet for it. And then they start it. And they're like, “This is taking time away from like, the main thing that makes me money.”

Trudie Avery: Yes.

Joe Casabona: And the big benefit for you is that you realized it sooner rather than later. Right? Because I think a lot of people fall into the fallacy of like the sunk cost. Well, I've already put this much time in it. Maybe it'll grow right.

And so getting back to the lead gen, right? I guess I'm like inventing a new podcast for you here, right? like here, like Monday Morning, quarterbacking. And so if you're telling these stories right? about how you help people do better branding, you're a lead gen, right? The call to action could be, “Hey, I hear the same five mistakes all the time with my clients. If you wanna get those five mistakes and what to do to fix them, here's this free resource I have for you. Go over here. Join my mailing list, blah, blah, blah.” Right? That's the thing I would recommend.

Now, it's still…This is, and I think this is another mistake that people make. I made this mistake for a long time too. Basically everything I do is just like tell people the mistakes I made and how to avoid them. Maybe that's all coaching. Maybe I'm just like realizing that right now.

But, anyway, it's that your podcast is not necessarily a way to get more like it's not a growth lever. it's a trust lever, right? And so you get people into your funnel through social media or paid campaigns or webinars or whatever, and then you get them listening to your podcast and that's how they grow to trust you more.

And so the way to do that now, I've seen, there's a couple people I follow on LinkedIn now who are like, to be contrarian, and they'll say, “This doesn't work.” Empirically for me, it has worked. But like podcast, swaps is a good way to get in front of other similar audiences and get more people listening to your podcast.

And so my friend Jeremy Enns, is a really good resource for like, marketing your podcast. But I think that's probably another mistake a lot of people make is that I'm gonna start a podcast. It's gonna be similar to starting a YouTube channel where like that one episode will take off and then people will discover me.

Discovery is really hard in the podcasting reell. As we record this today, right? Maybe six months from now when YouTube is doing more podcast stuff, it'll be better. But, the podcast is the way to nurture the relationship that you already have with somebody who's discovered you somewhere else. And so I think that's another…

Trudie Avery: I think it's a mistake to believe that opening a podcast is going to get you this instant fame or following or anything instantly is definitely a thing. Something that's a grower. You have to build and build, And through consistency, and you know, just giving and giving and giving that it will grow in.

Yeah. I mean my/our mind grew from like, I think the first episode we had 20 listens and then through to now when they still not massive, but you know, it's getting 50 listens. So yeah. No. There was that growth over the 18 episodes but, yeah. I'd have to go for about a hundred years to get a thousand Listen. So, yeah.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you like, it's tough. I mean, yes. My main show, How I Built It pulls in, you know, between like three and 5,000 downloads per episode over the first 30 days. Around 75,000 downloads total per month.

This show has…I started publishing it in earnest last June. So, you know, about three quarters of a year as we record this, and it just recently crossed the 3000 downloads mark. And I'm pretty excited about that because it's a new niche for me. I'm build. I'm using it to build authority.

The most popular episode, it has 134 downloads. So, I need to like, take my own advice, right? for podcast growth. And that's, I mean, that's one of my goals for this for I guess like Quarter 2 right now that strong set of episodes and resources. I wanna start sharing that out and doing more podcast swaps with people.

But, yeah. The growth part is tough. I will say of those hundred or so downloads that each episode gets each week, I do get a few people, a few new people onto the mailing list. So, you know, I think the consistent call to action is helpful. And again, people who are listening and every week or have at least subscribed and they hear that call to action like they trust you a little bit more.

So, it definitely, it's a slow build. It's been a slow build for me. And I know the levers I need to pull to grow it. But, you know, I think like finding the right mission and the right niche, and then working with other podcasters are probably the three things to really help grow, right?

And so we're coming up on time here but I hope this was, I mean, again, it was a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking for you. But, I hope it was helpful perspective-wise. I hope it was helpful for the listeners who tuned in.

Do you have any closing thoughts as we wrap up here?

Trudie Avery: I think, will I do it again? Will I create another podcast? I think so. Probably, but like you say, I just need to, I need to think more. Be more strategic in what I'm putting out there, why and what I expect to return, and how I intend to do that. I need to be so much more focused on the outcome that I want so that I don't turn around and say it was a failure again.

So, yeah, I think. Never say never on. I need to think.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I like that. Well, I hope to hear you back in on the podcast waves soon because I did enjoy your show. I would tune in. I subscribed. I would listen to most episodes.

And yeah. Of course. I mean it was first of all, anytime somebody has me on a guest, I give them the courtesy of subscribing to their show. But then, like, you know, these are interesting stories you're telling.

I've been in business since high school. And so I was very interested in that. I will say this though, right? like being intentional about your goals is really important. A lot of people will say like don't even think about trying to make money until after you've launched your podcast. I think that's the wrong approach. Think about how you're going to make money with your podcast when you're starting it. Don't worry about making money from episode one. Like don't say, oh, I haven't made money yet after five episodes. This is a failure. But if you have that achievable goal, then it's easier to march towards. Right?

I'm working with like a health coach now, and she says, “Yeah. You wanna lose 50 pounds or a hundred pounds or whatever?” I wanna lose 50 pounds. Don't focus on the 50 pounds. We're gonna celebrate every time you lose two pounds. Can you lose two pounds this week? I go, yeah. Like, I could easily lose two pounds this week, right? And so that one small achievable goal is the thing that makes me keep going, right?

Trudie Avery: Mm-hmm.

Joe Casabona: So, I think that's also something to think about. Don't think about, “Oh, I need a thousand downloads, or I need to get a hundred people on my mailing list.” Think, “Hey, if 15 people listen to this episode, that's 15 more people than I would've reached with this message.”

And so that's the goal. Next week it'll be 20, right? The week after, that'll be 25, whatever. So, I think that's an approach to take as well.

So, Trudie, thanks for coming on the show and being open with your podcast experience. I appreciate you sharing with us.

If people wanna learn more about you, where can they find you?

Trudie Avery: So my website is the, is [logolady.com]. They're, you'll find out all about my design business essentially. So my branding business where I design logos and websites and everything but, yeah. [logolady.com] or LinkedIn, Trudie Avery.

Joe Casabona: Yeah.

Trudie Avery: I'm there everyday.

Joe Casabona: Yes. Which I will link. Yeah. And I was saying before we recorded like your LinkedIn posts get tons of engagement. I'm not gonna say I'm jealous because jealousy is a bad color, but, I aspire to get the same engagement on my Linkedin post that you get. So, you show up there. You post really great stuff. It's awesome.

I'm sensing, you know, I think either a YouTube channel or a podcast, maybe both, where you just roast people's logos, right? logolady roasts a logo. People love that. Maybe that's your next idea.

Trudie Avery: I could never be that mean. I could never be that mean.

Joe Casabona: Well, we can work on that. I'm… I can be that mean because I'm from New York. So, we can work on that offline.

Trudie, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

Trudie Avery: Thanks, Joe.

Joe Casabona: I want to thank Trudie once again for coming onto the show, for being so open and honest with us about her struggles, and hopefully saving you some time and some strife.

Now, truth be told. If Trudie had gone through the Podcast Liftoff program, she could have saved some time here, right? Because one of the first things we do is talking about defining your mission statement and understanding that measurable ROI in the beginning even if you're not making money at first.

We also cover podcast swaps, which is a great way to grow your show. So if you are interested in any or all of that, you can go to [podcastliftoff.com/playbook] to join the program. It's an open enrollment right now. So, definitely check it out.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

If you want to hear Trudie's episode where she talks about shutting down her podcast, I will link that in the show notes which you can find over at [profitablepodcaster.fm/311. That's [profitablepodcaster.fm/311].

Thanks so much for listening. And until next time. I can't wait to see what you make.